Messenger Radio Co-hosts Ray Sanders and Bob Nigh interview Oklahoma state legislator Sally Kern about her recent comments about homosexuals. Read on for the full transcript of the interview.
Messenger Network Coverage
RAY: Sally, we just want today to serve as an opportunity for you to bring clarity. To let you speak in regard to this issue, and we just want to welcome you to Messenger Radio.
SALLY: Well, thank you, gentlemen. It’s a pleasure to be here and I appreciate the opportunity to be able to in a safe setting share exactly what happened and what I was saying and what I meant.
RAY: Well, I think there are a lot of folks in the Christian community, as well as just in the public in general, that would really like to hear from you and exactly what you meant.
The comments you have made recently have gained worldwide attention and a broad media attention. Just kind of tell our listeners what is going on and why are so many people upset with what you said. What was the context of your speech? What’s happening here?
SALLY: OK. I was speaking at a Republican club, and it was at an open meeting. It had been announced in numerous ways, and there were about, if I have the right time, because I had given this speech four times, and if I have the right one where I think it was recorded, and I think I do, there were about 25 to 30 people there. And I had been asked to speak about the aggressive homosexual political agenda and how they are funding homosexual and pro homosexual candidates to defeat conservatives across the nation.
And so that’s what I was talking about. And the You Tube video took things that I said about the homosexual lifestyle, which I still believe are true and I will not back down from them. I think there are facts to verify it. They took a part here and a part there and a part there and put it all together and made it sound like I was giving just one rant against homosexuals. And I was not.
That You Tube video is a blatant misrepresentation of the purpose of the speech and what I was saying. And as a Christian I have no hate in my heart for anyone. My faith is very real to me, and I wasn’t advocating hate toward anyone. I was talking in a political sense of how radical homosexuals are trying to take out conservatives, because they want to change the political climate of this nation. In their own words they have said within the next 10 years.
RAY: Well, there are some particular comments that were made during that speech that I think have really stirred up folks. What I’d like to do is take a transcript from the You Tube video that was posted on the Web and just read through that, and if you think you want to stop at some point and say this is where they edited the tape or whatever we can or we can read it. I’d like for folks that are listening to kind of get a feel for what we’re talking about.
If you haven’t already folks, you could go to You Tube and listen to it, but I think the point needs to be made, and Sally would want you to know that what is posted there is not from A to Z.
The transcript there says, “The homosexual agenda is destroying this nation. OK, it’s just a fact.” Now this is Sally speaking in the video. “Not everybody’s lifestyle is equal, just like not all religions are equal. You know, the very fact that I’m talking to you like this here today puts me in jeopardy.”
SALLY: What I meant by that, I was not meaning my life being in jeopardy. My political career.
RAY: Taking a stance.
SALLY: Yeah. Because I knew that if they could fund, they could come after me and fund the candidate. But that’s OK. That’s what politics is all about, choices, giving the people choices. So that’s what I meant when I said putting myself in jeopardy.
RAY: And the context is you are at a Republican meeting with your comrades, if you will, and, and you’re speaking in the context of speaking with them.
SALLY: That’s correct.
RAY: Then you say “OK and I’m not anti, I’m not gay bashing. But according to God’s word, that is not the right kind of lifestyle. It has deadly consequences for those people involved in it. They have more suicides, and they are more discouraged. There’s more illness. Their life spans are shorter. You know. It’s not a lifestyle that is good for this nation. Matter of fact, studies show that no society that has totally embraced homosexuality has lasted more than you know a few decades.”
SALLY: Now there is where I misspoke. I meant to say generations instead of decades.
RAY: All right, so there’s a point of clarification right there.
“So it’s the death knell of this country.”
And then this is the comment that has so many stirred, and we’re going to unpack this a little bit later, but it says, “I honestly think the biggest threat even that our nation has, even more so than terrorism or Islam, which I think is a big threat.”
Now let me say that again, “I honestly think it’s the biggest threat even that our nation has, even more so than terrorism or Islam, which I think is a big threat. OK.”
This comment I think is the one that has offended a lot of folks, especially in the homosexual community. I think that some Christians would say well, Sally, how can you go in and compare anyone to terrorism and Islam and substantiate that?
What, would you say at this point about those comments?
SALLY: OK. First I want to say that was my, those comments are my opinion. And the last time I looked, we still live in America where we have the First Amendment where we have freedom of speech. So that was my opinion. It was also my way of seeking to make a point that just like terrorism and radical Islam, is what I meant to say, are destroying things. The twin towers were destroyed.
I compared homosexuality to terrorism because they want to destroy the traditional family and traditional marriage. That was the analogy that I was making. I was not in any way advocating that we need to go after these people. I was giving an example. I was making a point, using a metaphor if you will that these, this lifestyle, not the people, but the lifestyle is dangerous to this nation.
RAY: I think some would say, “Well I think you are comparing homosexuals to something like Hitler or the Holocaust or something at that level.”
I mean comparing homosexuality to terrorism and Islam, they would say how can you substantiate it? I think some would think that these are pretty harsh words and a pretty harsh comparison.
What would you say is your intention? What is at the heart of a comment like that?
SALLY: The heart of a comment like that is to just try to wake people up. Especially I was speaking to a group of Republicans, but many of those are Christians and basically the church needs to realize there is a threat to the authority of God’s Word. And I was just seeking to make a point. That was it, and that was all.
And you know, one of the things about the homosexual agenda, and there is a homosexual agenda, and I’ve got examples to prove that one of the things they say to do is to vilify anybody who disagrees with that lifestyle, to make them look like they’re engaging in hate speech when they aren’t, to make them look like they’re wanting to encourage people to go out and, and, and kill them. To make them into victims.
Now I was not trying to do that. I was just trying to make a point that the radical homosexual agenda is seeking to destroy the very foundation upon which this country has been built, and we need to wake up and stand up for our conservative values, yay our biblical values as Christians, or we will lose not only the freedom to express our own opinions, but we will lose the freedom to influence our children with our biblical lifestyles to pass on our values to them.
And I think in the long run we will lose this great nation.
RAY: As you look back on that particular day and what was said. You said this speech has been given on several different occasions in several different venues. If you could, and I know you had indicated you feel no reason to apologize for the statements that you made and you stand by them, but if you could bring understanding by phrasing it another way, or if you were going to try to make the point in another way, how would you make your point if you weren’t going to use those words?
SALLY: I would say that the radical homosexual agenda is the element in our society that is causing the most moral decay. And that moral decay is, is going to be devastating to our nation. Now it’s not just homosexuality, any sexual sin. The Bible talks about fornication. OK. And as we become a nation that throws off any sexual regulation, sexual guideline
SALLY: Standards, we will suffer the consequences. There is a historian, a secular historian, he’s not a Christian. His name is Will Durant, and he’s written a lot of books on civilization, and he was asked what are some signs of a deteriorating civilization. And he mentioned numerous things. Primarily, he mentioned throwing off these sexual regulations such as embracing things like homosexuality. And then he was asked is America doing that? And he said yes. So here’s a secular historian.
RAY: Well now, I can hear folks out there saying OK, now Sally Kern wants to regulate sex, and I don’t think that’s what you’re saying.
SALLY: No, not at all.
RAY: But I think what you’re saying is that even if you look in the biblical context, look back to Sodom and Gomorrah, in a society where homosexuality, loose sexual standards arise, then that society ultimately, I think in your speech you even alude to this, that within a couple of generations we don’t have to worry about that particular society.
SALLY: Right. Well I, I think one thing I’d like to interject right here Ray. We are all born in sin. The Bible teaches, I believe God’s word, and that’s why I’m not backing down. I believe God’s Word when it says that, that in sin my mother conceived me.
Now that doesn’t mean that the mother wasn’t married or like that. It means that we have a sinful nature. And all of us are capable of doing whatever, the grossest thing. OK? But because of God’s grace we don’t. OK. And, and you know homosexuals say well, and this really seems to tick them off when I say well, they have the right to choose that lifestyle. And they’re writing me all these e-mails and saying, we didn’t choose this. Yes they did. Because the God that I know and love in His Word, a loving God, would not call something a sin and an abomination, and then make someone where they did not have a choice.
RAY: Well it’s in the Old and the New Testament. It’s very clear. The Scripture is very clear about homosexuality as a sin. The Bible is very clear about other sins.
RAY: And you are right. We are all sinners. Sally Kern is a sinner. Ray Sanders is a sinner. Bob Nigh is a sinner.
SALLY: Amen. Amen.
RAY: All of our listeners today, we know that we’re all sinners. And to say that I was born a sinner. Yeah, we all are, but I also have desires that are not godly, and we all have desires that we could yield to. But to say that well, ‘I’m just going to yield to my desires and be a homosexual,’ I think that the Lord would say, ‘Well, if that’s what you decide to yield to, then you are.’
You know Oklahoma Baptists have not been silent in regard to this issue. In 2007, Oklahoma Baptists passed a resolution regarding hate crime legislation, which stated basically Oklahoma Baptists love all people regardless of lifestyle choices, by sharing with them the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and condemns all acts of hatred and violence toward homosexual and transgender people while affirming scriptural authority, which clearly verifies homosexuality as sin.
I’ve said it on this program; we’ve had guests on this program that were former homosexuals. The bottom line is that we are to love the sinner, but hate the sin.
RAY: That may be homosexuality, that maybe any number of things. But we are to love the sinner, but to hate the sin. And we cannot back down from that.
And then in 2006, Oklahoma Baptists passed a resolution that stated a traditional family is defined in the Bible as holy matrimony between one man and one woman. It also includes single parent families. The resolutions committee confirmed that a traditional family does not include individuals who cohabitate or practice same sex unions.
So here we are. Oklahoma Baptists have certainly spoke to this. It’s not an issue that we necessarily shy away from. I mean in the last two Conventions, statements have been made in regard to this.
Now, so Sally we’ve talked about it, we’ve talked about the heart of this comment that was made on You Tube, and we know that the video was edited down. Someone was taping it. If in your heart of hearts, if you could have said it the way you said it earlier, restated it, would you have restated it or would have said it the way you said it the first time?
SALLY: You mean if I had, if I were to say it again?
RAY: Yeah. Would you restate it in the way you that you said earlier, or would you say it exactly the same way?
SALLY: Well I’ll probably restate it. It’s not my intent to offend people with using rhetoric that is just intended to anger them. I will not back down from the fact that God’s Word teaches homosexuality as a sin. I will not back down from the fact that it is a, instead of a lifestyle, it is a death style.
Studies show that homosexual men on an average have 20 to 30 years shorter life span. And there are serious consequences.
When they become sick it’s harder for them to get well. And it’s just, it’s not an acceptable lifestyle.
And another thing about this that really bothers me is they are infiltrating the schools, and that seems to have ticked them off. And I have proof of this.
But God has the normal maturation process and everybody knows that. A little 3, 4, 5, 6 7-year-old girl likes to play with other girls, and the same with little boys (Editor’s clarification: boys play with boys), because the hormones haven’t kicked in just yet.
SALLY: That’s normal and natural.
SALLY: So when you introduce at a young age like that to these children as Project Ten does, which is a program that says hey, one in 10 is homosexual. They teach this in elementary school to children. When you introduce to those children at such a young age that hey, you may grow up and because you like your little girlfriend right here, your other little playmate, then you could be homosexual.
When you interject that into their young lives, and then as they start growing up, when we all know life is hard enough as it is, young people struggle with who they are, and they struggle with their sexuality, and they struggle with the passion and the burning within from the wonderful gift of sex that God gave us, then you cause a lot of confusion for them. And this was not God’s way.
RAY: Well don’t you think Bob, in listening to Sally, I hope our listeners are picking up on the heart of the woman here. It’s interesting. If you follow Sally’s career and what she has stood for, family values, she’s pro life, when you look at all the speeches she’s made from the floor and otherwise, to hone in on three or four words and categorically say this is what this woman’s like. Listen to this woman. She’s bigoted. She’s hateful. Man, have you ever said something that if you had an opportunity you wouldn’t necessarily take back your words, but you think you know what, I could have probably polished that apple a little better.
I think that’s what Sally is saying. But to say that you want to take it back, I’m not sure she’s saying that. I think what she’s saying is I maybe could have said it a little bit better.
BOB: I might have chosen a little bit better word here or there, but the point’s the same.
RAY: And her intentions, that’s what we have to look at is her intentions. And we don’t need to let other people paint what we say and put spin on it. And that’s why we have Sally on the program today. That’s why we want you to hear it from her. That’s why Bob and I wanted to have her on the program.
BOB: Sally, the governor has made a few comments about all of this, too. What is your reaction to what the governor has said about all this?
SALLY: Well I know the governor said he was disappointed in me and that his, I believe he said his Bible teaches that we are to love everybody and tolerate their lifestyles. He must be reading from a different book. My Bible also teaches that we are to love everybody, because God is a God of love, but my Bible does not teach that we are to tolerate everybody’s lifestyles.
You know the Bible talks about God has come to redeem us, and that means we are lost. OK? And when I said in my speech that not all lifestyles are equal, not all religions are equal, what I meant by that is there is truth. Jesus said I am the way, the truth, and the life. What we have today in postmodernism is this thinking that hey, if you believe it, that’s fine. You believe what you want. That’s fine. I can believe what I want. All of them are equal.
That cannot work. That is not God’s Word. And so I’m disappointed in my governor, who’s a good Baptist, or attends a Baptist church. And I will stand by God’s word and regardless, I’m so thankful for all the support and calls and e-mails that I have been receiving from great Oklahomans and people from all over the nation saying stick to your guns. Proclaim God’s truth.
And I want them to know that I am thankful. But I’m not going to back down because I didn’t say anything in hate. I didn’t say anything in malice. Perhaps I could have said it in a less offensive way, but I was standing by the truth and I believe I’ve been reading in Philippians this week, the Book of Joy.
Philippians Chapter 1, Verse 12 says this, “Paul says I want you to know brothers that what has happened to me has happened to further or to advance the Gospel.” And that’s the way I see this. If God can take little old me, I’m a nobody, OK, and use me to stir up the church and say it’s time that we take a stand for biblical values, then let God use me. OK.
It goes on to say in Chapter 1 also, he says that we need to contend for the faith and do it boldly, not backing down in fear. And this will be a sign to, to our opposition, enemies it says in there that God will rescue us. And then it goes on to say we have been granted not only the privilege of believing in Jesus Christ, but suffering for him.
And you know that’s how I’m looking at this. And my prayer is that God will use it in, well like Joseph when his brothers did what they did to him, what did Joseph say to them in later years? He said. ‘You meant it for evil; God meant it for good.’
The e-mails, the hate e-mails that I have been receiving, and here you see a very huge double standard. For me to say homosexuality is a sin and is wrong, that’s hate. But for them to send me e-mails full of the most vile, profane, vulgar, and call me just disgusting, ignorant, whatever, that’s not hate. There’s a double standard here.
And I was standing up for God’s standard, and I will continue to stand for God’s standard. But the issue here is freedom of speech. And Christians need to wake up to this issue.
RAY: Now I want to make a point here. Anyone who wants to proof-text this could go back with what you said just now and say Sally Kern said for her to say that homosexuality is a sin, is hate. That’s not really what you mean. You’re talking about the double standard. Homosexuality is a sin, saying that is not hateful. That’s truth.
SALLY: That’s truth.
RAY: Now that’s one of your points. If hate crime legislation is in fact put into place, it’s very foreseeable that in the future, we could have folks sitting in our churches, monitoring what we say. And they say, ‘Now wait a second pastor, you just said homosexuality is a sin. Sorry, that’s a hate crime.’ No, that’s what the Word of God says.
SALLY: Exactly. And, and as I mentioned to you earlier, we had a leading homosexual advocate in Oklahoma City in our worship service yesterday taking notes like crazy. That’s going to happen in all of our churches if God’s people don’t stand up and proclaim the truth and reach out to every sinner, whether it be homosexual, whether it be a liar, an alcoholic, or whatever, and say God loves you. God has a plan for your life. He has a better way.
But what you’re doing is wrong. You can’t get lost, or you can’t get found until you know you’re lost.
RAY: Well let’s just say a gay person was sitting here with us today, someone from the homosexual community. Would you say to that person you hate homosexuals?
SALLY: I would not, and I’m so glad you asked that because Friday afternoon in my office a young man showed up. He was 23 years old, and I heard him say to my LA, secretary, out front, I’d like to speak to the Representative if I can about her comments. And I was busy doing something and I told my LA, sure, I’ll be right there in a minute.
And he came in and we talked for probably 30 minutes and he asked me what did you mean by this, what did you mean by this, what about your son, which we haven’t talked about here today. What about education and everything? And we talked for 30 minutes, and he said to me, ‘I am homosexual.’ And he says, ‘You know, in talking with you today, you’re just a regular person.’ And I said that’s right. I said I don’t hate homosexuals. I am against their lifestyle because God’s Word teaches that it’s wrong.
And I told him, I’m as much a sinner as you are, because we’re all sinners. He got up, he shook my hand, and he picked up this backpack, and I saw that backpack, and I patted him on the shoulder and I said now you didn’t tape this did you? And he laughed and said no. And I said well you know it wouldn’t matter to me if you had, because I didn’t say anything here that I regret. And he said, ‘I didn’t really think that you would talk to me.’ He said, ‘I appreciate that you did.’
RAY: Well I think it’s important for anyone that’s listening today, and if you’re a homosexual that’s listening today for whatever reason, we want you to know that I don’t hate you. I don’t think the Lord Jesus …
SALLY: I don’t either.
BOB: Neither do I.
RAY: … the Lord Jesus doesn’t hate you. And we would also say to you that we are not in a position to judge you. We are sinners just as you are, but we are going to tell you, we’re going to be honest in our love for you and tell you that you know what, the lifestyle you are living is sin and that God has a better way, and that He can free you from that. There’s organizations, whether it be First Stone right here in Oklahoma City . . .
SALLY: Which meets in our church.
RAY: Is that right, First Stone does?
SALLY: That’s right. Yes.
RAY: There’s Exodus Ministries. You can get freedom. Jesus gives freedom from sin. And homosexuality is a sin. Now you may think it’s the thing for you. There are a lot of things that we can think are for us that aren’t necessarily for us. I just want you to know I don’t want you to think this program is about hating homosexuals. I want you to know that I have friends, I have folks that I know are homosexual and I will break bread with them. I will go to dinner. I will talk to them. I would consider them my friends.
Now does that mean that I think their lifestyle is right? Does that mean that I think homosexuality is OK? No. Does that mean that I want to tolerate sin? No it does not. I think that in all honesty, what I hope for you is that you would find freedom in Christ, and I don’t think freedom in Christ would mean being in bondage in a homosexual lifestyle.
Well Sally, you mentioned the issue about your son. We have just about a minute or so left. Did you want to say something about your son?
SALLY: Well, I’ll be happy to. You know they have put out there that our oldest son is a homosexual, and he has been contacted by three different news media and has interviewed with them. And he has told them, ‘No, I am not.’ He is not married, and he has told them, ‘I have taken a vow of celibacy.’ He still has his ring, True Love Waits ring, that his father gave him back in 1994, and he made a vow then.
He’s a very talented pianist and doesn’t fit, fit, fit, I’ll get it out here in a minute, the mold of being a big jock or he-man kind of guy, but that doesn’t make him homosexual. And he has told them. ‘I am not.’ He has told them, ‘I appreciate and love my family. They’ve always supported me and helped me in any way that they could.’
And he’s gotten a couple calls asking him is he homosexual, and he says, he told them ‘No, I’m not,’ and they’ve said, ‘Well. there’s no story in this.’ So they want to get out that he is, but they don’t want to do any retraction that he isn’t.
RAY: Stir the pot so to speak.
SALLY: Right. And so God is using this in his life, in my family’s life as much as they are using it in my life. And I, I expect to do a whole lot of growing as a Christian because of this. And so all I have to say is God’s grace is sufficient, and that’s what I’m hanging onto.
My Bible says this is the day the Lord has made. Rejoice and be glad in it. That’s how I try to live my life. The Bible says in all things give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. It doesn’t say give thanks for what’s happening to you. It says give thanks while you’re going through it, because Jesus is Lord and He’s either Lord of all, or He’s not Lord at all.
I’ve had a lot of e-mails that have said how can you be a Christian because you’re judging? The Bible says judge not, less you be judged. You know, in studying that Scripture, that’s talking about judging the intent and motive, and whether or not somebody is a Christian. That’s not talking about judging their actions, because there are many other places in God’s Word where it says as Christians, we are to look at people’s actions. We’ll know them by their fruit.
We’re even encouraged to go to our brothers when they’re in sin and admonish them and encourage them to come out of that.
So the homosexual agenda, the aggressive radical homosexual is what I was talking about, not the everyday homosexual who is like the everyday Republican or Democrat who just wants to live their life. They don’t go vote very often or anything. And the everyday homosexual just wants to be left alone.
There’s the radical segment that wants to change this society. I have gotten so many e-mails where they denigrate Jesus, the Bible and Christianity. They, the radical homosexuals, hate that because we call them to a standard. We tell them that it is wrong and there’s a better way, and they don’t want to hear that.
RAY: Well folks, we promised you at the beginning of this program you would hear from Sally Kern directly. We hope that we haven’t impeded that in any way. We wanted to give her the opportunity to speak to this issue. I think she has, and you can judge for yourself as to whether or not her heart and motive are pure.